The difficulty of social pressure is something that will always plague mankind, as humans naturally desire relationship with other humans. I feel this is the driving factor of life. Why do we do what we do? It is simple so that we may build relationships, even if we do not realize it. Why do i play a sport, ultimately if it was just me and no other people there what would be the point. Why do i get an education simple increase my ability to communicate, increase the view that other PEOPLE have of me, get a job which is also so that i can increase the view others have of me. I could go on for days with examples of how everything we do is out of a desire to have a relationship with other human beings.
In the novel, Like Water For Chocolate, this is an underlying concept that greatly affects the novel. All of Tita's actions are a direct correlation of her desire to be able to have a relationship. How and with who is the dilemma, all that is certain is that she desires relationship. It begins with Mama Elena, Tita desires to have a relationship with her no matter what she says about Mama Elena she at least always subconsciously desires relationship. The void is temporally filled by Nacha who through many years gives Tita that relationship that she so much desires. Then it is Pedro and then John and then Pedro and Rosaura's daughter, and then back to Pedro. Many people get caught up in her decision between John and Pedro, but it is much deeper than that. It is her desire of relationship over everything else in her life, and her struggle to obtain the relationship.
The societal aspect come in as society attempts and often succeeds in dictating ones relationship. As society is a large group of people it has a strong influence for it is unnatural to go against others who we naturally want at least an opportunity for relationship with. but none-the-less in often dictates relationships. As is seen in the novel. Society dictates to Tita that she can not be with Pedro when Rosaura marries him. Yet Tita fights this, in-so-doing creates the theme of the novel overcoming society, is just a matter of overcoming yourself cause you are society.
I feel that society and its affect on humans through its affect on relationships and the importance of relationships to humans is one of the central struggles of the world. How to get what you want, when what you want is standing in the way. It can be very difficult as is seen in the novel, but as is also somewhat seen in the novel with Gertrudis, is how society can lead you to what you want. It is a toss up if society will keep you away, like Tita and Pedro, or lead you, like Juan and Gertrudis.
Just another issue of life that must be deal with, but that no one has solved so at least there is no expectation just the opportunity for greatness.
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Paul, nice connection- and I must say one of your most coherent ;-)
ReplyDeleteI especially like your comments: "society and its affect on humans through its affect on relationships and the importance of relationships to humans is one of the central struggles of the world. How to get what you want, when what you want is standing in the way."
My question for you (and I'm not taking a dig I really want to know) is why is there a difference in opinion towards different characters who are all just trying to get what they want with something standing in the way. That is vague, I'm sorry... Why do we laud some characters (ahem, male) who go after what they want as heroes, models of strength, while other characters (cough- female) who go after what they want as selfish and weak?
Now what I don't want you to do, is slip into an abstract rant (you know what I'm talking about) about how all humanns are (blank) and no one can really define (blank) and so there really isn't any point.
Ask yourself the following question and answer honestly and specifically:
Okonkwo: kills his (adopted) son, chases his other son away, beats his wives, kills himself-the class excuses this behavior because of his society and his "cause" and comes to the conclusion that he is either a hero- or displays very heroic qualities.
Edna: has affairs, leaves family and kills herself. Although her cause is basic human rights, and she fights against an entire society, she is called weak, selfish and a horrible wife and mother.
Why. Why,why,why,why,why,why,why.....etc.?
I feel like you were probably trying to avoid getting into this type of debate- but I'm not letting you off the hook. You are too smart and rational for some of the arguments you are making in class!!
:-) If we are snowed in tomorrow, I'll expect some conversation!
Ok so first off some of my arguments in class are just because I think as I speak. I think alot but dont draw conclusions till i speak, which is the cause of why my peers view me as as they do. Also the fact that most everything in big picture is pointless and the sher maganitude of futility of Man kind with out the concept of a life after this one on earth greatly frustrates me. For when I decide think of life without something past this physical world, that this is all there is, we look like a bunch of idots. Has history not taught us anything, but that without purpose then we might as well never existed? Yet any purpose of this world is not fulfilling (world meaning physical relam aquiring material things, or position for material things but material objectics being the desitantion) at least this is so for me. and I think it is so for everone, but most people do not realize it and end up making there purpose one of the material things. think about it why do people say they want to go to college put so much time in school and such? to get a good job? why that to make money? why money? cause that is what makes them happy? but most never are asked and there for hardly get by the first question. and should the anwser not be so that I may gain understaning for that is my natural desire? ane the purpose of understanding is to obtain contentment, which i personaly feel can only truely be reached through God, but its something you have to work on and school and education is a part of obtaining that contentment. for contentment brings about happyness which is what humans ultimately stide for as plato or one of them dudes said. and so you see the frustration that most people do not understand their purpose in life. And i am not trying to put people down or anything but it realy is frustrating when in class i want to speak on broader issues like what is good and evil or what is our purpose as humans, for with out the anwsers to these essiental questions set as a premise no conclusion to any of the thousands of detail topics we talk about can be reached. and that is greatly frustrating to me espically when we do talk about an essential topic but the conculusion is you think what you want and i will think what i want. For if we dissagree on the essential we can go no further. which is what leads to many random things that i say in class the majority of which i do not aggree with and just dissagree with people for the fun of it and the fun of figuring out some alternate line of logic to piss them off.
ReplyDeletenow that that is adressed. your question why why why why why ect. Okonkwo respected others he respected the people, he respected relationships,he moved away for seven years out of respect, heroes are the most selfish people there are as you will see in my thesis paper hitting news stands near you in the who knows how distant future... haha so he is selfish as well, he just blunt and obvious that what is is he is blunt and obvious plain and simple.
but Edna respects no relationships as far as i can see but who knows she doesnt she doesnt no anything she is the most confusing person ever she doesnt know what she wants, she wants to find her "self" well her self never went anywhere all she had to do was look inside. that is the main difference Oko is straight up with you he tells you what he wants eveyone knows what he wants and the he will do whatever it takes to get it and that is a sign of strength. but his weakness comes just as enda in the sucide not being able to make that most powerful sign of strength, sacrifice. but enda doesnt know what she wants at all and that pisses me off, it remides me of a child that is throwing a tantrum where as oko is like a teenager who parties. and we just cant look up to a child. sure maybe what the child whats is good, and it doesnt have the ability to get it its self (society hinderance on edna) but the fact that it goes and cries and such shows it doesnt know anybetter. where as the teenager blantently says what he wants doesnt get it but instead of going and crying about it goes and tries to get it himself. and that act of autonomy is what makes us look up to oko vs. edna.
I have re-read and, I believe, comprehended your response. My mind went in a thousand different directions as far as how I wanted to continue the debate, but it really comes down to this:
ReplyDeleteYour quest for contentment is a basic human right: women in the period we are now discussing had one path for "contentment" and that was get married and have children (you can argue all you want that it was a "choice" but that would be like saying that you have a choice to get a job- technically its a choice, but if you don't you can't survive unless you live with your parents your whole life- such was the "choice" of women in Edna's time period.) If a woman was not content as a wife and mother- not her choice in the pursuit for contentment but societal-prescribed contentment- she was (and still is apparently) deemed an unnatural, selfish woman who did not know her own mind.
You are proud of your religion, and it is a basic human right for you to choose that religion: women in the period we are discussing adopted the religion of their father until they married- they then adopted the religion of their husband. It was not considered natural or conducive to a woman's time to study religion and come to her own conclusions.
You revel in philosophy and thought, another basic human right- women in the period we are discussing- and all the way up through the 60s actually, were educated on how to be good housewives and mothers, all other education, including college, was considered an interim period until wife and motherhood.
Edna is a child in the sense that access to and knowledge of the world is denied to her. I don't see where she throws a tantrum... maybe you could elaborate on that. To me, Okonkwo decapitating someone in rage was much more of a "tantrum" than Edna calmly and rationally informing her husband she is moving out, and calmly and rationally informing Robert that she has no intentions of marrying him.
Perhaps her actions are not what you would deem "moral" but then, neither are Okonkwo's and you seem much more willing to condone his actions.
Okonkwo "goes and tries to get it himself" because he lives a world that has catered to him and makes it possible for him to act. It's funny that you say "sure maybe that child doesn't have the ability to get it itself (society hindrance)" like its just no big deal! If you think that this societal hindrance is something to shrug off- I think we may have found the root of our difficulty in finding common ground here.
Why don't you try to come up with some examples of how Edna could have "gone out and got" what she wanted- free will- in a world that denied this to her. We'll look at those examples together and continue from there.
:-)
I think it was wrong that women were so consticted then. but i dont want that to affect my analysis of the character in a specific time period differnt than mine to much it can be considered but shouldnt be a focal point.
ReplyDeleteshe couldnt have got what she wanted cause she didnt know what she wanted and both of those things were because of society, i have said this all along. I never said that Society was right. All im saying is that she was not a strong character to me. that is my opinion as she had no self sacrific and came across as a child (where the tantrum was an analogy not literal). Granted Oko had self sacrifice not near as much to make him good, but more than any other characters in the book which is why he was classified as strong when disscussing him. incomparison Edna was not as strong as she didnt sacrifice herself but instead went the other direction. so that is why i dont view her as strong.
But when it comes to Society, it obviously played a major part in her life and the hand she was deal to play. i just dissagree with how she played her hand. period end of story so she got dealt a bad hand she coulda played it much better. and that is my analysis of her.
I mean i get the effect of the society i have from the begining, why must i like and think enda is strong or think of her in the same manner as anyone else. i realy dont think i have been that unjust, to be honest i think you are about as bais in the opposite direction, and that is just simpley by how passionate you are no one can be that passionate and unbais.
Paul,
ReplyDeleteFirst of all, calm down! All I can picture is you sitting rigidly at your computer, typing furiously, blood vessels bursting at their seams! I almost feel bad for baiting you into an Awakening conversation!
Secondly, I'm not biased in the sense you are implying (towards women exclusively)- if you'll remember, I get just as worked up about issues of race: My passion is for any group of people who have ever been oppressed or made to feel inferior because of who they were born to be.
My passion is obviously stirred up here- possibly (maybe, perchance, conceivably, perhaps?) this could be because of the resistance and attitudes toward this literature that no one in class has exhibited towards any other works of literature this year- regardless of like or dislke.
For example: (snottily) "Why do we have to learn about women's suffrage?" and (just as snottily) "Why are we reading A Doll's House part 2?" ;-) Keep your pulse rate down I'm just teasing!
And you have to admit that despite your admittance here that you believed the societal constraints to be wrong, some of the other things you have said (just to mess with me I'm sure) have not been quite so forgiving.
Perhaps the confusion in our discussion is that I was discussing Edna more as a figure of what was wrong with a society, while you were merely discussing whether or not she is a strong character. I also just really, really wanted you and others to at least acknowledge the difference in standards used to judge male and female characters in this literature (example: your first statement in this post- we didn't take characters before this unit out of the society in which they existed to analyze them-their societies were the focal point in which we analyzed them).
Let's cool it with the Awakening (unless you don't want to because I could still send a few questions your way.) Otherwise- we disagree and that's okay too.
<3?